Mythic+ Like Retail is a Mistake
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Everything I've feared about mythic+ from retail has made it's way here. Elitism, gear score (for a dungeon!?), even preferred specs (for a dungeon!?). Why? Simple...because Ascension copied the timed element of mythic+ from retail. Because of the timer, people are forced into certain specs, even at higher gear levels...all to beat the timer. It doesn't and shouldn't be this way.
Do away with the timer. Make the dungeons difficult, but don't have a timer. You can make rewards based on death, not time. No deaths? 3 chests. 1 death? 2 chests. 2 deaths? 1 chest. 3 deaths? failed. This is in the true spirit of classless WoW because players won't be limited to specs that have huge aoe or splash.
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@rnbwtrout 100% agree. I never bothered with Mythic+ or the Timewalking dungeons before that because of how much emphasis was put on the damn timer. Rushing through content is not fun to me.
You know what was fun? The pre-nerf Cataclysm heroics when that expansion launched. Those 5-man dungeons were hard and required serious teamwork and planning from all 5 players. Completing one without any deaths would indeed be a challenge and is precisely what would entice me toward Mythics on Ascension.
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@DoubleDiamond yes time is all time bad only becose with time limit you need kill mobs(and no mob) in this time = all in party need use only aoe skills
= some new LRE are more better than others (like Hoplite, Elemental Assassin, Beast and Blade, .... are almost useless in time limit) and when everyone get in start like 3 life (+2 for tank mabie) will be better than time and i think more fun (all dps will look on his threat because death will be bad 
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I'd like to see the forced use of CC.
Most of everything we do right now is "rush rush rush" and you don't get to enjoy the content. It's about the reward at the end. It doesn't feel like teamwork and smart playing is important over brute strength and raw output.
Get people to think outside the box.
I also believe that the enemy forces % is good because it ties you down to killing at least a certain amount of mobs. If you didn't know, a TON of this stuff is skippable with invis. But adding the timer to it kinda kills it for some.
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Agree 100%!
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I too completely agree with this.
Despite having a rather high ilvl due to raiding, some individuals and groups won't even consider having me join their group if I don't agree with "stressing" through the dungeon. For me, a busy father spending some hours in the evenings in order to relax, this is an increasingly demotivational factor.
The idea of incorporating "number of deaths" is imo a great idea, which would help promote a broader spectrum of specs and skills.
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Referenced by M MadiJun
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Full disclosure, I mean to talk some shit..
My understanding of things is the goal is to bring a 'slice of retail' to Vanilla and TBC.
People feel so ing good when they slam their 200 ton mega c on the table and say "Look at the mythic+ numerical on my equipped bracers. See it? Inspect me.. It says +20. I finished a +20." They love it so much that they fully embrace toxic gameplay that takes 5 steps up and away from RPGs into the Action genre.... 5 people all begging for their own c** to be checked out by the other 4 players in the dungeon... 5 people not checking out any other c***s, cause they're too busy thinking about their own.
Challenge mode gameplay is so antithetical to the spirit of Vanilla WoW. [s]But hell, check out my mega donger. NOW we havin' fun boys.[/s]
Literally, you're embracing "Ion's Mistake" circa Legion, due to ego. The goal is extension of gameplay, but the motivation is validating phallic size. It's vapid, numerical, heartless and soulless. Try to remember your favourite Mythic+ moments. It pales in comparison to a good fuckin' laid back bloody Wailing Caverns. Or a raid encounter that takes a good 1 - 3 hours of prog. Or a hard mini-dungeon similar to a short DnD adventure. If that's not how you feel, then fork Ascension into the action genre as it is to the vision of how-action, how-retail-are-we-goin; I won't be here. You won't miss me. (I haven't downloaded the client yet, but damn do I hate Mythic+)
PvP was and should be the holy grail of dueling dongs. Once the players have their pants forcibly removed in PvE for 30 minutes in order to achieve top-tier progression, the breeze gracing your nuts will only feel good for so long before you want less scantly clad game modes.
If you disagree I'd bet you like Retail. And I'd be on the wrong side of town.
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@lentilburger said in Mythic+ Like Retail is a Mistake:
Challenge mode gameplay is so antithetical to the spirit of Vanilla WoW.
This is really the only thing you said that I disagree with. If you think about it, the original endgame of Vanilla was challenge mode. Sure, Onyxia and MC could be done by groups fairly well, but there's a reason so few people ever got into Naxx let alone completed it. I think the only difference is the challenge didn't come from timers or new boss encounter features, but instead from the challenge of collecting the necessary gear and making that long progression from level cap 5-mans to making your way through raids.
When BC added Heroic difficulty for 5-man dungeons, it opened the door for multiple difficulty settings for raids and then it snowballed from there. Personally, I do think it went too far; the addition of more and more types of challenges lost the focus, but I also understand people want to be challenged in different ways, so I'm not sure where to draw the line.
Did you prefer the linear progression of normal dungeons to normal raids alone? It does make progression simpler, but I like that Heroics allow you some progression while revisiting lower level content.
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@DoubleDiamond said in Mythic+ Like Retail is a Mistake:
Personally, I do think it went too far; the addition of more and more types of challenges lost the focus, but I also understand people want to be challenged in different ways, so I'm not sure where to draw the line.
I think it went not only too far, but too far down the path of describing elements of fantasy that are unimaginable. A wrong way to go; eating with a spatula. For example, say, a "Pool of Reacquirement" that lets you buy items back that you sold or deleted; in a fantasy game. The pool would be totally ridiculous, lore-wise. It's basically duplicating elements of a world and I guess all-knowing about what was once owned. The imagination of applications of the pool are enormous. But we ignore how it would really work and give it a pass because it functions in a helpful way, and gives us something we wanted, and all in the space of a few minutes, and then is forgotten as we dip back into the fantasy. So, making and using a 'Pool' is undesirable, but sometimes necessary.. If the gameplay and plot become about the pool, and we spend most of our time in the game using the mechancis of the pool, the absurdity starts to rip at the seams of the fantasy. Suddenly all disbelief must be suspended, and we become mechanical.
The c***s compared aren't green anymore, they're human. We less can work within the limits of the facade, of 5 members of the horde or alliance in a dungeon, and it is much more 5 people on computers. Friendships are better for the addition of a broken facade over time, but in this era of WoW all facades are broken.
These points are easy to turn a nose up at, because you might disagree with the sentiment that fantasy elements empower the experience. I don't mean to say that I enjoy role-playing. I enjoy the idea that one of my party members might be roleplaying and I poke at the edges of ruining their fun, or making fun of them, by toeing the line of a broken fantasy, only applying [working within the limits of the fantasy] (as in, my demeanor) when it is the most ridiculous but applicable. However, to return to M+ and anti-fantasy, when all the seams are torn, and everyone's in world chat and on the way to their Mythic dungeon +X, the busy work is king to bragging rights, and in-fact bragging rights are now peasant, because few can muster any care about the difference between a +21 and a +20. It's just, "Wow, dude that's crazy, that's insane.. that's... ugh. whatever.". "Have you done BRD?" doesn't become "Do you have at least M+10 gear" as a trade in bragging rights value, it becomes a mathematical analysis. And the gear looks the same.
Can you do me a quick favour. Keeping in mind the practical antifantasy nature of today's WoW systematically, imagine Ion in the middle of a DnD campaign and it's his turn. What would he say, what would be in his head. How would he navigate a party member who cares about the fantasy, and he's left with the decision of making someone's day better or being inefficient................................. If you imagine it like I do, that's not the man I want directing game design in any way; but hell he would be good at designing balanced raid encounters, given a few too many points in masochism. MDI and RWF-driven design are a bit like development time to player housing, "Good for 3 hours for most." And, there are better ways of milking a game for fun than numerical dungeon increases. And in that realm, we shouldn't've ever thought that such a huge increase in time would come for free. It's just d*** measuring energy, not fun.
Did you prefer the linear progression of normal dungeons to normal raids alone? It does make progression simpler, but I like that Heroics allow you some progression while revisiting lower level content.
More than modern WoW, but less than Wrath's system. There's something about that skull at the portal of the dungeon or raid--in fear of my arguments falling flat.. It is one of those "Pool of Reacquirements", but the disillusion leaves me when true difference is observed: like a boss throws down a new ability--a price paid by the developer in time and creativity, rather than time and systems design. I loved the additional challenge of running heroics in Wrath, getting Glory of the Hero was fun, because we got to choose when to make the boss a play-thing, but now Glory of the [Expac] is a chore because the boss is always a mechanical, NPC with a number, root 'n' scoot four times and blue ball yourself with an empty chest.
You now can scarcely enjoy the work of perceiving the difference in difficulty from Normal to Heroic as we make 'adding a level of difficulty' a default state, and either way it's much more fun than perceiving the difference between two M+ numbers. Letting alone that we used to just show up to the dungeon and see how it went on heroic, which was more fun, personally. Perceiving the difficulty was expressed in moments like "Oh shit I can't tank through X stacks of some Heroic ability, we need to kill it faster or I need a druid to taunt swap." Even the feeling of a party member getting a legendary weapon is degraded, because the chest itself is a Pool. In the back of my mind it was unhinged and imagining things like taking the weapon from their dead hands, and it felt better, I was more excited for them. Is it the changed experience itself that curbs the excitement or is it curbed by the problems with the rest of the game, like pity for what the weapon could've felt like and where it might've taken them, pity that it will be transmogrified or invalidated by the fact that it might be transmogrified? I love the guy standing on the crate outside the Auction House rolling dice in full tier set, that guy is the man.
Mythic raids always felt like each boss saying "I'm seriously serious this time", but I was fighting the dev team, not the boss. It's silly and suspending disbelief that the encounter is antifantasy, but the higher we go the more I see the dev team smiling at me coyly behind the boss' face regarding the loss of legitimacy, and less I see the boss. I still see only the boss on Heroic, but I can't work out why.
Welp, I do crap on.
I have my own idea of how daily time can be extended without too much additional dev time, and maintaining the fun of dungeons and raids in Normal/Heroic mode, but the answer is more DnD, more tavern->quest->challenge->reward. So I don't know how that would make the average player feel. I think WoW needs 5-10 room linear manors, caves, dens with one big bad guy about as famous as Gamon, with daily quests, mobs that change their abilities slightly each day (generics). Rotating mega-mode daily with 4x rewards that puts one of the dens on steroids with a theme so that it's basically impossible without at least a tank, healer and a few dps (otherwise on any day a tiered raider may solo them with some difficulty). You would space them out across the world. Tie them to leveling questing areas (with a guy shouting daily affixes for each dungeon and all the dailies at the main player hub, in addition to original quest giver in the zone) and scale them to player's level, as dungeons are while leveling. Ironically, players would make groups and run their own timers for how quickly they could finish all the mini-dungeons if they were farming hard with their guild. People without the commitment levels would just do a high reward weekly or the daily mega-mode rotate. Stealthies / invis pot would sneak their way to the final boss to try and solo them, big diqs would rock up and say "Who needs a carry?". People would ask in chat "Need healer for mini". Imagine plonking a few of these in Korthia. Like a spooky library entrance on the left/northwest side and a crawg den entrance in a small cave or hobbit door on the right/southeast. People would be '/y need tank or dps crawg quick run' outside the dungeon or at Korthia hub to finish their dailies. These dungeons could and should literally just be a cookie cutter terrain cave instanced zone, or spooky_manor_3.map and take about 2-5 minutes to finish. The devs could make 10 of these in a month or less after (and I know Blizz love to...) the formula for creation is set up. Any boss concept would be welcome there so the devs have less pressure to make "THE BOSS", and they can just mess around and essentially audition bosses for further exploration of the character in raiding and full dungeon content.
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While I completely agree with most of the points presented here, I still think mythic+ as it is right now has a place in the game - it's challenging in a different, speedrunny kind of way that caters to players that like this playstyle, and it can be amazing and memorable if you group up with nice people. Of course, "nice people" are hard to come by inbetween all the dong measuring and meta tryhard-ing, and I actually think RDF is to blame here for automating everything (up to mythic+) and making people forget how to communicate in dungeons.
But when I think about it, my most memorable moments in all of wow are actually of those hour-long runs of BRD when I got grouped with awesome, communicative people that I braved the dungeon with. That wasn't on Ascension mind you, but on a normal tbc server that's dead now. So BRD wasn't even the endgame there, it was just a stepping stone of the leveling journey - another thing RDF ruined imo. I remember making all possible quest chains and taking all the quests for BRD prior to making one of these runs to make these last few levels before going to outland. But enough of my nostalgic trip, we were talking about Mythic+ here.
So here is what I propose - make an "untimed" variant of Mythic+. It could be with a harder difficulty, or with additional trash/ads/mechanics when compared to its timed variant, and loot will be dropped as it is normally in heroics (currently mythic+ reward caches are total sh*t cuz they drop loot from ALL dungeons, not the one you're making, so good luck getting a specific item, you'd have to painstakingly farm coins and buy and upgrade the items you want).
The way it would work is by having a "timed" or "untimed" modifier on the keystone that can be added or removed at will at the mythic npc in shattrath (maybe changing the keystone type would downgrade the stone by 1 level to prevent possible exploits?). This way you could see if the dungeon you have is better for speedrunning or going slow and steady, giving players the choice of how they want to play and giving the same rewards for both playstyles.
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If you do bad dps and can’t afford invis just say that then. Stick to mythic 0’s and heroic raids. Don’t be average when someone else’s key is the risk and the only thing you have to worry about is what sick build mcdubbles will do next.
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