Rare RE: Feral Form Transformations.
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I'm reposting this due to forum account changes which made me lose access to my old posts. I would like to see an enchant that would be fully for PVE to enable transforming more often for non-intellect/spirit builds so that they may have more cross class synergy instead of mostly being confined to one form. A high base cost in regular wotlk is fine because when you play a feral druid you are largely confined to that form anyways, outside of certain niche situations.
Now currently the cost of feral forms is 30% which is actually lower than wotlk's 35%, but still too high to allow smooth swapping for PVE classless fantasy, and largely cat builds are simply relegated to staying in the cat form, as its too much mana to swap. I was told that they were lower previously, but nerfed back up due to abuse in PVP, since druid transformations remove certain CCs on cast.
If that is truly the case the solution to this is easy: A Rare RE that simply removes that benefit and reduces the cost significantly, making it undesirable to choose it in PVP situations. I would propose it to be: Bear and Cat Forms now cost 10% base mana (I'd actually prefer if they were free to cast), but no longer remove CC on transformation. All this would mean is that Bear and Cat forms are now more able to be matched with other class abilities that remove the transformation, but can't be abused as easily in PVP. I just think it's ridiculous because no other class abilities you have to pay a giant toll just to have access to them. It really ruins the classless fantasy to have this toll just to be able to use abilities.
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@Faledan I'm not sure it would be wise, there are many ways to go around this problem by getting mana managements, be it omen of clarity, mana regen, innervate, evocation, judgment, ss, mana agate, eldricht knight and so on, also is there not a green re for form mana cost ?
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@Chappinhas Imagine for a second you played a warrior rogue hybrid, you go strength or agility whichever one you prefer. Now imagine that you had to pay a 15% mana toll just to swap to the other class's abilities, you have no real reliable way to regenerate mana fast enough to utilize your rotation without feeling like half a class when you only have access to one set of abilities. Apply that to every class now, every single player has to pay a large resource toll to swap between class abilities.
Would that feel fun for you? I just want to have the luxury that every other class is afforded to not have to pay to have access to my abilities when I want to play my classless fantasy of the megableed cat/rogue combo. And would be willing to take an optional removal of the only thing preventing me from having that (PVP abusability) over grabbing a bunch of mana tools that are generally subpar and cost me spell slots just so I can cast the ONLY mana costing ability that I have which only gives me access to class abilities but costs me 30% of my mana.
Also just to respond to your suggestions
Omen of clarity: useless, not only would you have to proc it you would have to proc it in a time where it doesn't destroy your rotation, because it just makes next ability free of any resource and is entirely random.
mana regen: unspecific but I'm assuming you mean on items? MP5 is too scarce and would never work for a build that needs reliable swapping and also is using agility.
innervate: 2 min cd for 3 shapeshifts oh and costs skill points.
Evocation: even worse, 2 min cd for 2 shapeshifts and costs a channel time and skill points.
judgment: unfortunately didn't proc enough to be reliable, i've tried it before, also would cost 2 spells.
SS: I'm confused by the acronym as I only know it for soul shard, maybe you meant Life Tap? Life tap is probably the most useful but also doesn't mean that my idea is "not wise".
Eldritch Knight: Costs a legendary slot... when all I would be using it for is 1 ability just to have access to class abilities reliably. Not a good suggestion.
Mana agate: a 2min cd consumable conjured item which would give me maybe 2 shapeshifts.
The green RE: is 5% of 30%, not -5% base cost. It means that it only makes it 1.5% less mana, which is horrible. Even if it were -5% it would be horribly innefficient to stack that 4 times over having an alternative 1 rare RE that removes its abusability from PVP and makes it reliable for PVE.
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@Faledan forgot seal of wisdom, judgment has 100% proc on 3 speced. You want to play mega bleeds because thos enchants are very strong ( ive played one with the hunt in pvp and it hits hard), the high mana management requirement is the balance you get for a stackable + 12% dmge increase. That being said , mayhaps a combo style thing where you would incrementally reduce the cost of shapeshifting the more you do it.
Still, don't just whine about mana, you have access to all abilitys and more in the game, and just because you cannot do 1 particular way does not mean it would not work in another.
I gave you examples of many a ways to regenerate mana, if you want cat and other class you must be willing to sacrifice certain talents, and there is nothing wrong with that. -
@Faledan I don't see why this RE wouldn't be a good idea. I haven't looked into builds that combine melee martial / feral form abilities, but I know they are theoretically possible (I've seen RE's that do something like increase damage of Rupture if a target has Rake, for instance). I don't see why it would be a bad thing to give players the option of expending RE slots to reduce the mana cost of casting feral forms instead of expending ability / talent essences to do the same.
This doesn't seem overpowered at all and could provide new options. I'm not sure what quality of RE it would need to be, multiple greens (reduces the mana cost of feral forms by 10% each) or a single blue (reduces the mana cost of feral forms by 30%).
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@Faledan I'm not sure an RE would be good since the concern you seem to be vocalizing is pertaining to mana issues caused from swapping, likely due to being booted out of shapeshift.
There are two very realistic solutions to this that I can think of off the top of my head.
- Reduce the active mana cost taken to shapeshift
- Make Shamanistic Rage usable in shapeshift
In this situation, you're still being forced to shapeshift which retains a lot of class identity (Please make slice and dice usable while shapeshifted as well. It doesn't make sense.) while reducing the overall mana cost.
- Adding Evocation/Life Tap take multiple GCD's where you'll be at a net loss.
- Adding Innervate wastes 1 GCD, but restores minimal amounts of mana.
- Mana Agate is on a 1m CD, and doesn't do anything if you make a human mistake. You've lost/wasted it if you mess up.
- Eldritch... Yeah lets not talk about it. It's not feel good. bad.
- Judgement is a general waste, and for it to be worthwhile, you'll want to take the seal, sacrificing your dps seal.
- Green RE - Wasting a VALUABLE RE SLOT is not worth the overall problem listed.
Maybe adding additional RE's that would be Epic or lower that allow the use of X ability in Cat form excluding the two resolutions I posted above would be good?
I side with you OP. Cat doesn't feel good when you have to shapeshift out every few seconds because of circumstances out of your control.
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@Xinterp i disagree that seal is worthless, alongside leader of the pack it gives for impresive cat form mana regen, cat fporm hybrid res are very strong and the playstyle requires good coordination, i understand it is expensive but mana is also a bountifull thing in ascension.
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@Faledan use aspect of the viper when you need mana with this you get same mana like from seal of wisdom (but viper give mana from any melee skill damage and no only from auto attack like wisdom + viper give 4% max mana per 2 sec
) and have only -20% damage with talents and who needs +20% damage when you no have mana to use your skills -
I have yet to see anyone running any of the following RE's in Ascension:
- Thirst Quencher --- Increases the damage of your Bloodthirst by 5% against targets afflicted by your Rake.
- Raking Rend --- Increases the damage of your Rend by 5% against targets afflicted by your Rake.
- Deep Cuts --- Increases the damage of your Rend by 7% against targets afflicted by your Lacerate.
- Rake And Break --- Increases the damage of your Heroic Strike by 7% against targets afflicted by your Rake.
- Open the Wound --- Increases the damage of your Rupture by 8% against targets afflicted by your Rake.
- Blood Bugs --- Increases the damage of your Rake by 4% against targets afflicted by your Insect Swarm.
Are these builds not used because the mana cost of swapping into feral forms is just too high to make switching effective?
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@DoubleDiamond can be use ? https://forum.ascension.gg/topic/262/good-or-bad-re-write-d
and yes some RE have too bad conditions for to use in some builds
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@Chappinhas Suggestions which involve wasting a bunch of spell points and talent points just to have access to class abilities are not arguments against what I want but in fact further prove my point. No other class options have to waste a bunch of various points just to have access to your class abilities, not so you can spam a large mana cost ability with insane damage, but simply for access to your abilities period.
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This is a reply to everyone in general: This is the place to ask for new things to help for certain class fantasies that people have, either by suggesting crazy and creative Legendary REs or just simple QoL REs. I just want what other class combinations have: more seamless access to my abilities without having to pay a giant toll simply for access. I've tried most of what you suggest long ago, and they don't work well enough alone and I'd still prefer the form cost being reduced.
I personally believe asking that abilities be usable in feral form would be a bit of a hard ask. Although they might be able to code feral form buffs to only apply to feral form abilities, we still get a bunch of attack power in feral form, and other class abilities weren't designed with feral form damage coding in mind. This is a far easier ask imo, just remove the abusability in PVP and allow it to be spammable in an optional RE without forcing the change on everyone.
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@DoubleDiamond Yep, they have a bunch of REs that are supposed to give synergy to using things that force you out of feral form but nothing that facilitates those builds. I've literally never seen a feral build that uses them, and don't see people using feral form as anything but a permanent form.
It's far easier to just be feral, supply yourself with CDS usable in feral form and just be a strong feral than someone who stance dances between feral and non-feral and budgets a bunch of spell and talent points all for the purpose of paying mana for feral form and nothing else.
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@Faledan i write this long time back but no1 upvote me suggestions and i no know why when this will unlock too many new builds (and ofcourse too much work too) https://forum.ascension.gg/topic/9/2-form-or-stance-and-can-not-use-in-same-time
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@Faledan said in Rare RE: Feral Form Transformations.:
It's far easier to just be feral, supply yourself with CDS usable in feral form and just be a strong feral than someone who stance dances between feral and non-feral and budgets a bunch of spell and talent points all for the purpose of paying mana for feral form and nothing else.
I feel like that's the key here.
You could technically make a character that jumps into cat form, applies Lacerate and Rake, and then jumps into Berserker Stance to apply Bloodthirst, Rend, Rupture and/or Heroic Strike, but it would use up a considerable number of valuable RE slots for what would amount to a small damage boost from DoTs and that's without even considering the mana cost of jumping back and forth into cat form.
Why do all that when you could just focus on either a melee weapon build or a cat form build to make it more effective?
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@Faledan what you want is a cookiecutter build that comes all nicely wrapped in a legendary RE with some epics to boot, i agree catform and shapeshifting in general could get some more love, but the mana aspect of shapeshifting is crucial for spell identity, there are many ways aroudn it from viper to seal, mana cost reduction and so on, but you dont want any of those, you simply ijsist it shouldnt cost mana and i dont agree with that one bit. ~
How about this, an RE that grants you a buff when you go into or out of shapeshift that reduces the mana cost of shapeshifting by 15% for the next 10 seconds, stacks 5 times. The cost reduction is applyed on top of other already existing cost reduction.
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@Chappinhas said in Rare RE: Feral Form Transformations.:
you simply ijsist it shouldnt cost mana and i dont agree with that one bit.
Why, though?
The mana cost for shifting into animal forms makes sense from a balance perspective, especially in PvP and even more especially on Ascension where any player has access to them. But if someone wanted to trade the ability to use feral forms to escape CC in exchange for removing the mana cost, which I see as a fair and balanced trade, why not?
Most people would use feral forms in a build for one of two reasons:
- Access to feral form abilities, in which case they're probably only shifting into feral form once and then staying that way.
- Breaking CC, where the mana cost creates a natural limit on how many times it can be used.
The RE's I mentioned above do not fit into either of those scenarios, because someone who wanted to combine Bloodthirst, Rend and Rupture with Rake would need to keep switching between forms for nothing other than their normal rotation.
Yes, players have other options to make up for the mana cost of switching forms. Those options cost ability essences, talent essences or both (although I'm not sure how effective they'd be in a build that constantly cycles between feral and non-feral forms). The discussion here is adding another option: the ability to use an RE to balance out the use of feral forms in a rotation instead. The only difference would be the cost the player wants to use to make up for the original mana cost.
I don't see the problem with it.
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@DoubleDiamond I still think mana cost is essencial, it is a complete form changer, not a stance. That being said, the RE's that incentivize form changing are especially strong precisely because the build would have to take into consideration mana issues and such, ripshot for instance, increases steadyshot dmge by 15% stackable 3 times, with one-with-the-hunt thats a 52% dmge increase with only 4 RE, precisely because you are w8sting mana in shifting and need to spec that.
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@Chappinhas No, those are the only two that do above 10% damage increases, everything else is sub 7%, which is exactly the same as all other "while affected by x spell" increases. Those 2 also require you to juggle between ranged and melee distances.
Even then all they would have to do, is make it so those two REs cannot work when you have my suggested RE, they've made mutually exclusive REs that lock you out of other REs before. Your argument is essentially they can't do this because of 2 REs no one uses anyways... There are many ways they can make it so that it works around any complaint you've made or probably will make.
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@Faledan im working on a feral hunter warlock summon pets then same shift. Which mean your attacking with demon and hunter pet while you melee with them. Example I started a feral warlock released imps first shapeshift so I'm running in the starting zone bearform with imp running behind me still working the kinks out including hunter pet save mana while shapeshifted.
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